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Welcome to the MOS pit


    Style discussions elsewhere

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    Add a link to new discussions at top of list and indicate what kind of discussion it is (move request, RfC, open discussion, deletion discussion, etc.). Follow the links to participate, if interested. Move to Concluded when decided, and summarize conclusion. Please keep this section at the top of the page.

    Current

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    (newest on top)

    Capitalization-specific:

    This section is an excerpt from Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters § Current.[edit]

    Move requests:

    Other discussions:

    Pretty stale but not "concluded":

    Concluded

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    Extended content
    This section is an excerpt from Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters § Concluded.[edit]
    Capitalization-specific:
    2023
    2022
    2021

    RfC: Use of verbs in biographical descriptions

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    The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
    There is consensus that ‘serve’, ‘served as’, etc. is acceptable in many contexts without concern for neutrality, and while in other contexts it may be bad writing or poor phrasing, these questions are superseded by the overwhelming consensus that the MOS should not have a rule on this language. — HTGS (talk) 03:35, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]


    In many articles about living persons, and particularly about persons in positions of authority, e.g. member of parliament, corporation CEO, city councilor, etc, the lead paragraph often uses the verb "to serve" in denoting the person's work." E.g. "Ms Smith serves/has been serving/has served as member of the XYZ Board of Directors." In this related discussion, the issue was raised about the potential for meaningless excess in that term's use. (Here's a useful essay on that.) This, of course, applies to biographies about persons no longer living.

    Comments are invited on the following options:

    • A Use any simple form of "to be," e.g. "Smith is Acme Ltd auditor."
    • B Continue to use "serve" in biographies, e.g. "Smith serves as Acme Ltd auditor."

    -The Gnome (talk) 17:37, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    • I would go with B, which does continue to reflect both formal proper, and common, usage, particularly in fields like politics and public office. But both forms are of course perfectly correct and acceptable. MapReader (talk) 19:56, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • I remember a previous discussion long ago where an argument was made that "served" is a euphemism. Curbon7 (talk) 21:20, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Neither. This is not something that needs a broad rule. Either form is acceptable, as are other options. My most common experience is that people use "serve" to capitalize a title while complying with MOS:JOBTITLE, going for "served as President of Aybeeceedia" instead of "was the president of Aybeeceedia", which seems like a silly workaround but whatever. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 22:51, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • A is/was reflects everyday speech. To my ears 'served as' always sounds either pompous or somewhat euphemismistic, he "served as President of Aybeeceedia", but wasn't really 'up to scratch'!Pincrete (talk) 07:00, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Neither per FFF, the euphemism angle is understandable in some cases but this also seems within the bounds of quite common language variation. CMD (talk) 07:12, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Neither – is should be fine most of the time, but synonyms are not forbidden, and the occasional usage of serve, even if maybe a bit pompous and not strictly needed, does no harm. Gawaon (talk) 07:20, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • A is preferable in almost all cases; "serve" is appropriate for military personnel and the like (and also for waiters and tennis players!), but is empty WP:PEACOCKery in other cases. Better to stick to plain English (but hoping this is not something we're going to embody or enforce in yet another MOS rule). Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 08:16, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Pinging participants in related discussion, minus ones already present and accounted for: @Necrothesp, Doniago, AlsoWukai, EEng, Popcornfud, SMcCandlish, WhatamIdoing, and Roger 8 Roger: -The Gnome (talk) 11:58, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Neither - both are acceptable. Also, it isn’t a dualistic choice… consider that there are other verbs besides “served” and “was” that might be appropriate. Don’t be formulaic when writing. Blueboar (talk) 12:18, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Neither as this is instruction creep. But if we must have one, I would choose A over B. DonIago (talk) 12:40, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Either. Both are perfectly good English. Neither should be encouraged nor deprecated. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:00, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • A since any variant of "serve" denotes a positive attribute, which goes against WP:NPOV. It's not a neutral verb no matter how many clothes we try to dress it with. The opening paragraph of WP:WTW is explicit: "Certain expressions should be used with caution because they may introduce bias. Strive to eliminate expressions that are flattering, vague, or endorsing of a particular viewpoint." -The Gnome (talk) 14:14, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Neither because we don't need any more WP:CREEPY rules. He served as president, he was the president, he held the position of president, he worked as president, he became president, he was elected/appointed as president, he took office as president... Any of these will do under most situations. The idea of Public service being a form of service (as in servants, as in the opposite of powerful people seeking their own aggrandizement) is not a form of peacocking, nor is it a euphemism. It may be aspirational (the rest of us hope that the politician will serve the country instead of his own interests), but there's nothing inherently or egregiously non-neutral about it, especially when applied to people who didn't exploit their roles to harm others. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:47, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Agreed. AlsoWukai (talk) 19:53, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • No rule needed. Here, there is more than one way to say something, and variety can still make for good, and interesting writing (also, 'serve' is not hard to understand in the example given, rather the NPOV or related arguments are much too strained, when not baffling). As an aside, we should probably not usually write, 'someone is job', rather than, 'someone is broad occupation', followed by where they have served in that occupation. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:07, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • No rule, please. Either one could be at least annoying to too many editors and possibly disruptive if applied to existing text. There are figures in history of whom I wouldn't use "serve" – Caligula served as emperor from AD 37? – but we wouldn't need a MOS rule for that. NebY (talk) 18:16, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Neither, as both are appropriate for many articles and editors can use their heads—even if this freedom results in the occasional awkward lead sentence. As my troublesome nitpick, I actually do think serve has a vaguely positive connotation compared to the bare copula—but I don't think it matters enough, as every word has a web of connotations and none is truly neutral in every situation. Doesn't register as a WP:W2W in any case.
      Remsense诉 18:21, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Neither --- WP:LOCATIONLOCATIONLOCATION, which The Gnome linked in his OP, is my essay, and I'm flattered. However, we don't need a rule on this. My objection to served as is that it's usually surplusage; but it has its uses now and then, and I don't see any kind of flattery or peacock-iness in it. But I will say that, applied to Hilter, it does take some of the edge off to say he "served". That's for sure the wrong word to use for him. EEng 19:38, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      This needs to be said: The term "to serve" is being pronounced neutral in this discussion by sundry contributors. Is it really? Because if an ostensibly neutral term cannot be used at the extremes, it cannot be used anywhere. The Hitler example trumps all arguments to the contrary. It cannot be made more clear. -The Gnome (talk) 19:59, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      That sounds a bit extreme. Remsense said it well: no word is truly neutral in every situation. So if that's the thing to aim for, we may as well shut down this website and all go home. Gawaon (talk) 20:03, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      ...but...but...this site is one of the few things keeping me from falling asleep at my desk during downtime at work...  :| DonIago (talk) 20:08, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Which is exactly why we should not make a rule… we need things to argue about during downtimes at work! Blueboar (talk) 20:22, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Wikipedia serves a valuable purpose, if perhaps not the purpose it was originally intended for... DonIago (talk) 20:33, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      I think us editors are particularly vulnerable to logocentric fallacies—i.e. we're liable to treat the lexical word as the predominant or even only issuer of meaning, while affording phrases, sentences, and other composites no credence to really influence what connotations individual words must themselves possess. Remsense诉 20:48, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Please, please, don't go Wittgensteinian on me. This is the last thing this discussion needs. -The Gnome (talk) 14:36, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      I have trouble saying these things in an intelligent way sometimes—in other words I need to try sounding more like pseudo-Kripkenstein than pseudo-Wittgenstein. Remsense 诉 19:10, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      But subjectivity is objective. EEng 21:26, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      And I've said that many times. Remsense诉 21:40, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      if an ostensibly neutral term cannot be used at the extremes, it cannot be used anywhere.[RFC needed] NebY (talk) 20:11, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Neither I have no problem with Richard Nixon saying that he served as the 37th president of the United States from 1969 to 1974. That's not euphemistic and is normal English, even though most presidential historians rank him poorly. Cullen328 (talk) 20:19, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      That’s because some of us are imputing some sense of merit or sacrifice into the term “serve”, which isn’t really there. Serve can mean simply fulfilling a purpose, or function, and there is plenty of common usage where no merit is implicit, such as “serving as a bad example”. MapReader (talk) 04:28, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    So, me saying to someone Thank you for your service, for example to a veteran soldier, denotes nothing positive whatsoever; it is an abject expression of thanks for wearing a uniform, and nothing more. And, logically, I could express the same thankful sentiment to a traitor soldier. -The Gnome (talk) 14:41, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    A traitor would supposedly not be thanked. How is this relevant for this discussion, though? Gawaon (talk) 15:21, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Really you are making my point for me. Your quoted phrase does, but not because it includes the word “service”. It is positive because of the “thank you”. Had you said “I confirm your service” or “I note your service”, your comment wouldn’t have been received as positive despite the word ‘service’. Whereas, had you said “Thank you for your time in the army” or “Thank you for your work”, that would be received as a positive comment without any need to refer to serving. MapReader (talk) 17:12, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Either, see wikt:serve#Verb, particularly entries 1.2, 1.4, 8, 12. There are contexts where the word "serve" is non-neutral, such as smiling politely whilst putting meals in front of customers in restaurants despite a torrent of verbal abuse, but the original post gives "Ms Smith serves/has been serving/has served as member of the XYZ Board of Directors." as an example, and that is different from plate-juggling. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:06, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Neither Both are acceptable Roger 8 Roger (talk) 22:20, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • A or some other neutral alternative that suits the context. "Serves/served/serving" is a WP:NPOV failure, in being promotional and (positively) judgmental language. An argument could possibly be made to retain those terms for military and maybe even governmental functions, but even those uses have their long-term opponents. It's entirely inappropriate for corporate and other misc. organizational (school, team/squad, nonprofit/NGO, etc.) roles. PS: The fact that we have a bunch of articles doing this just means we have a bunch of articles to clean up. Cf. WP:FAITACCOMPLI and WP:NOWORK.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:18, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Sorry to say, but this is yet another RfC out of the blue, with no discussion on how to frame it. There certainly should have been an option C -- a new rule saying either A or B is OK, and D -- meaning nothing new added to MOS at all. This RfC is already a complete mess out of which nothing useful can possibly come. EEng 20:20, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • A Is there a specific case where anyone feels that "served as" is better, not just as good? Is it the case that "served as" has WP:NPOV problems in some people's idiolects, but not others? If so, does that mean that it has WP:NPOV problems? McYeee (talk) 01:15, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      That's what consensus is for in the abstract, and the examples proffered to illustrate why served should be generally proscribed have not really attracted consensus. Remsense ‥ 诉 01:18, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      I might just be out of my depth here, and I might not have been clear, but I just don't really understand any argument in favor of the usage of "served". I think my preconceived definition of the word is just less neutral than yours. I'll bow out for now. McYeee (talk) 01:32, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Aye, it's worth making explicit—no one is really saying it's superior in any or as good in all situations, but the MOS is meant to be as frugal as possible. We try to allow editors flexibility in things like word choice as much as possible, and we don't want to tell them what not to do unless it's almost always wrong (roughly, if it's more work to fix than it's good for to allow). See WP:CREEP. Remsense ‥ 诉 01:38, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Neither. I agree with the many comments above that there's no reason to ban either form; with Remsense about WP:CREEP; and with EEng that this is not a useful RfC. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:06, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • No rule needed. Both are acceptable depending on context, but this is not the sort of wording choice that the MOS should be forcing on editors. See also WP:CREEP. —David Eppstein (talk) 05:22, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • No rule needed. The claim that "served" is pov in general has no basis. Argue specific cases on the respective talk page, but don't impose a general rule where none is needed. Zerotalk 07:54, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Bibliography of Ulysses S. Grant

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    This looks like it should be called Bibliographies of Ulysses S. Grant, since it is not a biography of Grant but a list of biographical works about Grant - ie it is a case where we should be using the plural in the article title. Better still, Ulysses S. Grant biographies, since that places the primary search term first. Thoughts please. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:52, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    The current title is bibliography, not biography - a bibliography is a list of works. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:58, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Duh Cinderella157 (talk) 12:00, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If that's your response, then you still aren't getting it. The article contains a list of books—a bibliography—and not a list of bibliographies. Largoplazo (talk) 16:08, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    What would Homer do? I acknowledge my error. Cinderella157 (talk) 22:08, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Did you mean "D'oh"? That's Homer. Very different from "duh"! Largoplazo (talk) 23:06, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Possessives and premodern figures

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    Please forgive me for broaching one of the subjects with dozens of previous discussions linked in the header, but this has been bugging me and it seems major enough to be a source of consistent confusion and discrepancy. Generally, articles about classical figures (or at least that's the most helpful scope I can ascertain) with Greco-Latin names ending in S like Archimedes seem to consciously diverge from MOS:'S. It seems to be a real problem, as these are among the most prominent examples of what the aforementioned guideline is meant to cover. As we seem rather unlikely to happen upon a well-defined exception for the MOS, what are we meant to do here? Remsense ‥ 论 12:15, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    are you referring to adding an S after the apostrophe, or to using U+0027 ' APOSTROPHE rather than U+2019 ’ RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 15:15, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The former, sorry. Archimedes' versus Archimedes's. Remsense ‥ 论 02:09, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Why should it have anything to do with the date of the subject? We do not change our language to classical Greek to talk about Archimedes; why should we change it in other ways?
    But now I'm wondering about a different issue. A possessive 's or s', at least the way I would speak it, is voiced, more like a z. So is the way I would normally pronounce the s at the end of the name Archimedes. If I were more stuffy about Greek pronunciation (remembering that scene from Bill and Ted) it might be different. But for some reason, some other names ending in vowel-s (including Moses and Jesus) end with an unvoiced s for me. If I spell the possessive "Moses' " and pronounce it "Mozəz", I am substituting the final consonant rather than merely dropping a repeated consonant. But if I spell it "Moses's", and pronounce it "Mozəsəz", it seems more logical to me because I am still pronouncing both the name and the possessive the way I would expect to.
    Which is to say that I think the use of s' vs s's could reasonably be based on pronounciation rather than orthography or chronology. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:17, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    No trailing S seems the more common style in sources in those contexts, which has recently been gestured to on Archimedes' heat ray as to why it is conventional here. I don't agree with that at all, but it's an argument—one that seems to be directly contradicted by existing consensus, which is why I'm a bit flummoxed.
    I also disagree with the phonology argument, as that is surely something that varies by accent and likely cannot be clearly distinguished in many cases. Remsense ‥ 论 07:21, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    There are two distinct issues.Correct grammar calls for dropping the S only after a plural ending in S. A singular ending in S has an 's possessive form.
    The other issue is what Wikipedia's policy is or should be. That, presumably, is driven by WP:RS. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 09:14, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Not really, as citation or quotation isn't the same thing as transcription: we're fully capable of diverging in style from our sources (in many cases we are expected to) because it obviously doesn't affect the meaning of the claims. Remsense ‥ 论 09:16, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It's generally observed that Jesus and Moses do not take the apostrophe s, to avoid the ziz ziz sound: so Jesus' and Moses'. (Tangent: Suppose there are several people called Jesus, who collectively own something - it would be the Jesuses's.) However it is not generally considered categorically wrong. I forget what MoS says. All the best: Rich Farmbrough 20:26, 28 September 2024 (UTC).[reply]

    "MOS:NDASH: other uses" listed at Redirects for discussion

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    The redirect MOS:NDASH: other uses has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 September 15 § MOS:NDASH: other uses until a consensus is reached. Utopes (talk / cont) 13:46, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    One-character column of text

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    Do we have a policy that covers text being displayed in a narrow column as a series of one-character lines? For example, see [1] — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 13:13, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Pretty sure we don't. While all that color and stuff on that particular page seems pointless, "vertical" text does have its uses -- see left column of WP:MOSNUM#Specific_units. EEng 13:56, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Both versions (the one linked, and the current one) are bad. Just use the actual date, with correct date sorting. Gonnym (talk) 14:25, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It's a violation of proper accessibility practice. It causes anyone using a screenreader to have to sit through "jay ay en yoo ay ar wy", etc. Aside from that, there's no justification for the all-caps style or the use of colors. It's like something from 1998. Largoplazo (talk) 14:31, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    KUdos to someone for making an effort. But not a good idea. All the best: Rich Farmbrough 20:28, 28 September 2024 (UTC).[reply]

    Translated blockquote

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    I wrote Template:Translated blockquote to standardize implementation of Wikipedia:Manual of Style § Non-English quotations. I'm wondering about feedback on appearance. The guideline isn't very specific. I'm particularly wondering about where the language of the quotation should be placed if it is provided. I would further appreciate confirmation of whether the brackets around the translation are appropriate. Those weren't included in most existing examples I found, but I thought they would help clarify that they are a translation and not part of the quote. Once these issues are settled, I propose that the template to be mentioned in the guideline itself. Daask (talk) 20:33, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    I would much prefer the original and its translation to be shown side-by-side, but that's a matter of taste. If a language is shown, it should normally not be linked. IMO the use of brackets is consistent with citation templates. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:59, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I would appreciate the ability to specify the size of the paragraph indent: on Zhuangzi (book), I've manually set the indent for such facing quotes to 1ic, effectively matching the width of one character. Remsense ‥ 论 04:34, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Formatting of captions

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    I propose this rule:

    • However, if any complete sentence occurs in a caption, then every sentence and every sentence fragment in that caption should end with a period.

    should be complemented by this:

    • For sentence-fragment captions, if other punctuation occurs, then that caption should also end with a period.

    See example at John Vivian, 4th Baron Swansea. It seems weird to me to have every other punctuation – but not the very last. HandsomeFella (talk) 19:14, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    That's not the sentence in the article; remove the extraneous or. The proposal sounds reasonable at first glance but could use a strong justification. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 19:39, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    So if a caption includes a harmless comma or dash, it must end in a period? I don't think that would be an improvement. Our current rule is simple and consistent and I can't see a good reason for such a change. Gawaon (talk) 08:39, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    A sure way to distress readers and editors would be to punctuate captions that aren't sentences with periods, as if they were sentences. That would be very weird indeed, and lead to reverts of insertions of periods or to expansions of captions into weighty sentences, which would then be reverted, and the disruption would continue until the MOS change was reverted. NebY (talk) 15:20, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Test case for article titles with a leading ellipsis

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     You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:...Baby One More Time § Requested move 24 September 2024. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 13:12, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Proposed astronomy MoS

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    We have put together a proposed MoS article for the subject of astronomy, located here: MOS:ASTRO. Is there an approval process that needs to be followed to have it be included on the {{Style}} template? I.e. to have it added to the 'By topic area' under 'Science'. I just want to understand the steps. Thank you. Praemonitus (talk) 17:32, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Hmmm… It covers a few things that are not really Style issues. Perhaps it should be entitled WP:ASTRO not MOS:ASTRO? Blueboar (talk) 20:28, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh, okay. Well I suppose it's more of a guideline then. Thanks. Praemonitus (talk) 02:04, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Quick question..... this is being presented by a Wikiproject? I assume there's more than just four people at the project and that this is currently the norm for these type of pages? Moxy🍁 02:34, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    All I was asking for was the procedure. It is in regards to WP:AST. Thanks. Praemonitus (talk) 04:51, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    It is relatively uncontroversial for WikiProjects to develop suggestions for article content and to label it as an essay, and does not require a formal RfC and encyclopedia-wide consensus; for a recent example see Wikipedia:WikiProject Numbers/Guidelines. Making something a binding guideline on the whole encyclopedia is a much bigger thing, and probably would require buy-in from a much wider pool of editors through a formal RfC advertised at the Village Pump etc. If you are going to call it a Manual of Style it should be limited purely to style and not content or referencing, and be more phrased as clear formatting rules than as vague "you should consider this kind of source for this kind of content" suggestions. Also, I tend to think that suggestions like "The accuracy of the image should be confirmed by an astronomy expert" go far beyond usual Wikipedia norms where we rely on verifiability through sourcing rather than credentials and personal expertise. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:09, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Thank you, David. Praemonitus (talk) 14:38, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]


    9×19mm Parabellum

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    Should this be capped? All the best: Rich Farmbrough 20:12, 28 September 2024 (UTC).[reply]

    It was apparently registered as a trade mark (not an RS but see here) which would be good reason to cap. Ngrams indicate some mixed usage but not enough to argue lowercase, even though it is probably passing into lowercase usage. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:50, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    The insert box beneath the edit window

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    In the Common mathematical symbols section, we suggest using the insert box beneath the edit window, the edit toolbox under the edit window, in the "Math and logic" section of the edit toolbox, and in the "Insert" section of the edit toolbox, which many editors no longer have, or not usually. Assuming it's still present for enough editors to be worth mentioning, can we qualify that briefly so as not to leave many editors lost and confused? NebY (talk) 19:54, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    @NebY: This is the "charinsert" gadget, which is enabled by default for all users and all skins, and if people no longer have it, they've been to Preferences → Gadgets and disabled the "(D) CharInsert: add a toolbar under the edit window for quickly inserting wiki markup and special characters (troubles?)" option. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:02, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I have that gadget enabled. NebY (talk) 21:22, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    [edit]

    I have been encountering ongoing issues with User:Skitash, while I respect some of the work they have done on certain pages, they appear to have a significant bias when it comes to articles related to the Amazigh/Berber ethnic group.The first issue involves multiple pages specific to Berber history, such as Maghrawa and Banu Ifran. When I added the language tag in the lead per WP:LEADLANG for Tamazight/Berber, my edits were reverted by User I made sure to retain the foreign language , which shouldnt even be done, WP:FORLANG, in Arabic, even though it was uncited. User:Skitash justified their reversion of the Tamazight language inclusion by citing Wikipedia:No original research, despite the fact that the word "Banu Ifran" was cited twice for its tamazigh translation. The reason given was that the writing system (Neo-Tifinagh) "wasn’t used back then." However, the uncited Arabic text was allowed to remain. I need clarification: Are we prohibited from adding the lead language just because the writing system was different at the time, while keeping uncited Arabic text even though it falls under WP:FORLANG? Or should both be removed entirely? Im reaching out as i would prefer to avoid an edit war.

    The second issue pertains to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and Wikipedia:Manual of Style. On the page for Berberism, User introduced language that seemed biased, stating that the movement is closely tied to Anti-Arab racism. This was presented in a way that gave it undue weight, appearing twice on the page—once within the larger text and once in the first section on Algeria—without proper citation for the upper part. I removed the uper part, even though i believe both fully break Wikipedia:Neutral point of view , but removed the upper one as it not only breaks such but also Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia:Verifiability but it was reverted by him. I want to better understand the situation, whether I made an error in removing it or if Skitash’s edits were indeed problematic.

    The third issue relates to Karima Gouit and broader pages about Berbers. My understanding of Wikipedia:LEADLANG, particularly for ethnic groups with their own language and script, supports the inclusion of Neo-Tifinagh for Tamazight. However, Arabic text is used twice on these pages, while the Latinized form of Amazigh appears only once and Neo-Tifinagh is entirely absent. I need confirmation: Is it permissible to add Neo-Tifinagh, even if cited? And what about the use of Arabic, which is not the ethnic language of these ethnic groups? Returning to the issue of Karima Gouit, she is an Amazigh singer, as indicated by her public profiles outside of her wikipedia page that is fully outdated, songs, interviews, and her latest acting role. She is also a famous activist for the Amazigh cause. Skitash reverted the addition of her name in Tamazight, despite allowing the Arabic version to remain. This is in addition to the broader debate over whether to include her Berber ancestry, which two other editors argued against citing Wikipedia:Ethnicity is not notable enough for intro section, suggesting that it should only be included in the body with proper citations. Despite these discussions on the talk page, Skitash has shown little interest in further conversation even when he was the one behind the removal of the edits, and the dialogue is now largely between me and two other editors who were not initially part of the revision. But as it went on, he decided to put the page under deletion, and trying to place every "old" citation not even related to the subject as "poorly cited", I have since escalated the matter to the dispute noticeboard, but Skitash responded by filing a report against me at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/YassinRi suddenly with questionable cause, while he also has another dispute with another editor relating to inclusion of berbers in their own topics. which is outside the scope of this question, apologies but just wanted to point this out..For Karima Gouit’s page, should her name translation in her native language be included or not? And in terms of dealing with Skitash, is there a more effective way to communicate with them directly, rather than constantly involving third parties in disputes regarding Berber-related topics since he clearly oppose it? TahaKahi (talk) 13:31, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    While you do bring up some specific style issues, I get the sense that this is mostly a content dispute. I wonder if you could cut this down to those issues where you really need help interpreting the MOS, and bring up the other issues in some other forum — see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution for help in finding such. --Trovatore (talk) 18:08, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I have brought it up in the Dispute resolution, it met being locked as the person that continues to try and block the Wikipedia:LEADLANG decided to put it under deletion as i mentioned earlier instead of having a conversation and trying to reach a resolution, this extented to him ignoring yet another person, who made a dispute resolution on him for yet the same subject, his disliking of anything relating to Berbers/Amazighs to be included in Berber/Amazigh related subjects, here: Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Algeria discussion , instead, the same person took it even further and decided to ignore it, as seen in his response to the alert made in his page when he deleted it: [2].
    I understand this matter may not reach a conclusion under MOS, but I would like clarification on one point: Can we establish a decision regarding the inclusion of Berber languages (Tamazight), which is widely spoken in North Africa, especially in Algeria and Morocco, for subjects related to their history and culture? For historical figures like Kahina or Kusaila, who are clearly Berber and not Arab or even Muslim. should they have Tamazight and its neo-script or latinized form included in their Wikipedia intros, per Wikipedia:LEADLANG? would this would apply to historical figures, kingdoms, Amazigh activists, and related topics.A clear decision on this would help prevent further edit wars. From what I've seen, other language versions of Wikipedia include Tamazight per Wikipedia:LEADLANG, but this issue persists only in the English version. It is consistently being contested by two individuals with vague reasoning, as I mentioned earlier. TahaKahi (talk) 18:37, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    What other projects do or don't do is neither here nor there. If you have a specific question regarding a specific edit, then you use the article's talk page and make your case there. Forum shopping, casting aspersions ad misrepresenting the sources to push a POV (like you did) is not acceptable. M.Bitton (talk) 18:44, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I will refer to read what I said at the start of my reply which details how this didn't work, as for why this exist, its because I was referred to make one from the dispute resolution from 2 day ago. And also i would refer to your behavior in Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#c-M.Bitton-20241009175700-TahaKahi-20241009175000 TahaKahi (talk) 18:50, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Considering that this has already landed at the AN, I don't think there's anything to be done here. Gawaon (talk) 07:37, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The administrator noticeboard of our topic is chaotic at the moment, as many people are involved. It seems that a resolution may not be reached, as the discussion has shifted away from the main topic to something else. I don't know the exact path to take here? I was told to see the issue with Dispute resolution, then MOS and with AN i moved back and forth. TahaKahi (talk) 07:50, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If it's not resolved there, it certainly won't be resolved here. This page is for discussions about improvements to the MOS, and your issue seems largely unrelated to that. You'll have to resolve it either at the talk pages of the articles in question or at the AN. Good luck. Gawaon (talk) 08:02, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Examples to clarify MOS:AFFIXDASH vs MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES (especially re: combining forms)

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    Good morning,

    In editing an article, I discovered an issue I realised isn't very clear from the existing examples given in MOS:AFFIXDASH and MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES, and this recalled an earlier debate I'm still unsure about.

    The multi-compound in question was "Afro-Peruvian-American" on the page Afro–Latin Americans. Now, this could probably just be rendered "Afro-Peruvian American" to avoid the issue altogether, but I thought it best to find out what's actually right and to get a clarifying example or two on here if we can, to settle future debates.

    Over at Afro–Puerto Ricans, I was told the en dash is correct in that title page, even though "Afro-" is a combining word rather than a non-standalone prefix. This was a little confusing, because MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES gives a similar example where this isn't the case specifically because of a combining form:

    "Wrong: Franco–British rivalry; Franco- is a combining form, not an independent word, so use a hyphen: Franco-British rivalry."

    Obviously, "British rivalry" isn't an open compound, so I recognise this example may not be wholly applicable, but it seems to me that the article is calling out combining forms as different to standard affixes. If true, the combining form might essentially make "Afro-Puerto Rican" a single thing, meaning you would only use the en dash if you added a prefix to that (such as for "anti–Afro-Puerto Rican"). (Merriam-Webster suggests they're slightly different things too: https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/spelling-using-compound-words-guide/prefixed-suffixed-and-combining-form-compounds.)

    The argument given against that view was essentially that MOS:AFFIXDASH always applies, even for combining forms, and thus because "Latin America" is an open compound, the "Afro-" should be joined with an en dash. I'm still not wholly sure if that's right, simply because all the examples under MOS:AFFIXDASH use prefixes and suffixes which are non-standalone (i.e., non-combining forms), and the section doesn't seem to comment specifically on combining forms. And "Afro-" like "Franco-" seems to me to be subtly different to a prefix like "trans-", "pre-" or "post-".

    So, in short: if "Afro-Latin Americans" and "Afro-Puerto Ricans" are correct, then can we mention that MOS:AFFIXDASH doesn't apply to combining forms? And if they're wrong, and we should use "Afro–Latin Americans" and "Afro–Puerto Ricans", can we get some examples at MOS:AFFIXDASH that use combining words too? That would neatly clarify the situation without too much extra verbiage.

    And finally, given the answer to the above, should I also change "Afro-Peruvian-American" to "Afro-Peruvian–American" or "Afro-Peruvian American" (or even "Afro–Peruvian-American"/"Afro–Peruvian American")?

    I hope this makes sense! (I care a little bit too much about punctuation, it seems.) Lewisguile (talk) 08:25, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Minor: worth noting regional differences between em dash/en dash for parenthesis?

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    I note that the article says the unspaced em dash and spaced en dash can both be used for parenthesis but to keep it consistent within an article.

    Is it also worth noting that the former is associated more with American English conversations and the second more with British English conventions?

    That may help determine which to use in an article, if an article already uses one form of English over the other. I'm pretty sure I've seen that difference pointed out in an article on here before, though I can't seem to find it at present (from an admittedly brief search). Lewisguile (talk) 08:36, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    I don't believe that it is that obvious. See Dash#En dash versus em dash. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 09:49, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Well that article says it's generally the convention but exceptions exist. Then it quotes the Oxford Style Guide, which is already flagged sometimes as "Oxford English" on articles here, because of its known deviations from other "British English" conventions (e.g., "-ize"). That, to me, supports a statement such as "generally, US English uses this but UK English uses that".
    At present, the article just suggests it's entirely down to preference, which is more noncommittal that it needs to be and, crucially, may not be very helpful if someone's looking for a quick answer to guide them.
    It's not a huge issue either way. I'm just thinking about how usable the info is for the average editor. Lewisguile (talk) 11:49, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    On the other hand, Fowler's Modern English Usage (which I believe remains the main BrEng guide for the general market) describes the principal uses of the em dash as "a single dash used to introduce an explanation or expansion" and "a pair of dashes used to indicate asides and parentheses". It does not stipulate whether it should be spaced or not, but the examples it gives are unspaced. I'm quoting the fourth edition, but it's in line with the first (1926) and all since; the third and fourth say that they are summarising the New Hart's Rules.
    But not only would it be untrue to distinguish the unspaced em dash as American, it would introduce yet another source of correction, revert and dissent among editors, offering even the opportunity to argue about which ENGVAR should be RETAINed if spelling doesn't "match" punctuation. Let's not. NebY (talk) 12:44, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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